You mentioned there were lots of dead ends, and there certainly were. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. What Brian labels the religion with no name. Copyright 2023 President and Fellows of Harvard College. We look forward to hosting Chacruna's founder and executive director, Bia Labate, for a lecture on Monday, March 8. Is there a smoking gun? CHARLES STANG: So in some sense, you're feeling almost envy for the experiences on psychedelics, which is to say you've never experienced the indwelling of Christ or the immediate knowledge of your immortality in the sacrament. The Gnostics did have continuity with paganism. And so in the epilogue, I say we simply do not know the relationship between this site in Spain and Eleusis, nor do we know what was happening at-- it doesn't automatically mean that Eleusis was a psychedelic rite. BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. But in any case, Ruck had his career, well, savaged, in some sense, by the reaction to his daring to take this hypothesis seriously, this question seriously. So listening right now, there's at least one orthodox priest, there's at least one Catholic priest, an Episcopalian, an Anglican, and several others with whom I've been talking in recent months. So I went fully down the rabbit hole. It pushes back the archaeology on some of this material a full 12,000 years. And the truth is that this is a project that goes well beyond ancient history, because Brian is convinced that what he has uncovered has profound implications for the future of religion, and specifically, the future of his own religion, Roman Catholicism. I know that's another loaded phrase. And I did not dare. Nage ?] So we're going down parallel paths here, and I feel we're caught between FDA-approved therapeutics and RFRA-protected sacraments, RFRA, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or what becomes of these kinds of substances in any kind of legal format-- which they're not legal at the moment, some would argue. They are guaranteed an afterlife. The long and short of it is, in 1978 there was no hard scientific data to prove this one way or the other. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More by The Tim Ferriss Show The altar had been sitting in a museum in Israel since the 1960s and just hadn't been tested. And that's all I present it as, is wonderfully attractive and maybe even sexy circumstantial evidence for the potential use of a psychedelic sacrament amongst the earliest Christians. But so as not to babble on, I'll just say that it's possible that the world's first temple, which is what Gobekli Tepe is referred to as sometimes, it's possible the world's first temple was also the world's first bar. Now are there any other questions you wish to propose or push or-- I don't know, to push back against any of the criticisms or questions I've leveled? Richard Evans Schultes and the Search for Ayahuasca 17 days ago Plants of the Gods: S3E10. I have a deep interest in mysticism, and I've had mystical experiences, which I don't think are very relevant. And I write, at the very end of the book, I hope that they'd be proud of this investigation. When there's a clear tonal distinction, and an existing precedent for Christian modification to Pagan works, I don't see why you're resistant to the idea, and I'm curious . Joe Campbell puts it best that what we're after is an experience of being alive. It was a pilgrimage site. All rights reserved. Nazanin Boniadi So I think it's really interesting details here worth following up on. I see a huge need and a demand for young religious clergy to begin taking a look at this stuff. That's the promise in John's gospel, in John 6:54-55, that I quote in the book. This is going to be a question that's back to the ancient world. Wise not least because it is summer there, as he reminds me every time we have a Zoom meeting, which has been quite often in these past several months. So now it's true that these heresy hunters show an interest in this love potion. So first of all, please tell us how it is you came to pursue this research to write this book, and highlight briefly what you think are its principal conclusions and their significance for our present and future. And does it line up with the promise from John's gospel that anyone who drinks this becomes instantly immortal? In May of last year, researchers published what they believe is the first archaeochemical data for the use of psychoactive drugs in some form of early Judaism. There were formula. Books about pagan continuity hypothesis? And there were gaps as well. So if Eleusis is the Fight Club of the ancient world, right, the first rule is you don't talk about it. Others would argue that they are perfectly legal sacraments, at least in the Native American church with the use of peyote, or in the UDV or Santo Daime, I mean, ayahuasca does work in some syncretic Christian form, right? That is, by giving, by even floating the possibility of this kind of-- at times, what seems like a Dan Brown sort of story, like, oh my god, there's a whole history of Christianity that's been suppressed-- draws attention, but the real point is actually that you're not really certain about the story, but you're certain is that we need to be more attentive to this evidence and to assess it soberly. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. The whole reason I went down this rabbit hole is because they were the ones who brought this to my attention through the generosity of a scholarship to this prep school in Philadelphia to study these kinds of mysteries. CHARLES STANG: OK. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to. And all we know-- I mean, we can't decipher sequence by sequence what was happening. What I see is data that's been largely neglected, and I think what serves this as a discipline is just that. So the mysteries of Dionysus are a bit more of a free-for-all than the mysteries of Eleusis. No one lived there. Which is really weird, because that's how the same Dina Bazer, the same atheist in the psilocybin trials, described her insight. Here's your Western Eleusis. So that's from Burkert, a very sober scholar and the dean of all scholarship on Greek religion. And for those of you who have found my line of questioning or just my general presence tedious, first of all, I fully appreciate that reaction. I would love to see these licensed, regulated, retreat centers be done in a way that is medically sound and scientifically rigorous. All he says is that these women and Marcus are adding drugs seven times in a row into whatever potion this is they're mixing up. And I think what the pharmaceutical industry can do is help to distribute this medicine. But in Pompeii, for example, there's the villa of the mysteries, one of these really breathtaking finds that also survived the ravage of Mount Vesuvius. I wish the church fathers were better botanists and would rail against the specific pharmacopeia. Nage ?] BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. It's really quite simple, Charlie. Thank you. And nor do I think that you can characterize southern Italy as ground zero for the spirit of Greek mysticism, or however you put it. So how does Dionysian revelries get into this picture? Pagan polemicists reversed the Biblical story of the Israelites' liberation from Egyptian bondage, portraying a negative image of Israelite origins and picturing them as misanthropes and atheists. And I'll just list them out quickly. 48:01 Brian's psychedelic experiences . And so that's what motivated my search here. And I'm trying to reconcile that. I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. Many people see that as symbolic or allegorical or just a nice thing, which is not the case. What about Jesus as a Jew? And maybe in these near-death experiences we begin to actually experience that at a visceral level. Material evidence of a very strange potion, a drug, or a [SPEAKING GREEK]. I think psychedelics are just one piece of the puzzle. But please do know that we will forward all these questions to Brian so he will know the sorts of questions his work prompts. 40:15 Witches, drugs, and the Catholic Church . All right, so now, let's follow up with Dionysus, but let's see here. And so I do see an avenue, like I kind of obliquely mentioned, but I do think there's an avenue within organized religion and for people who dedicate their lives as religious professionals to ministry to perhaps take a look at this in places where it might work. Interesting. 44:48 Psychedelics and ancient cave art . If you are drawn to psychedelics, in my mind, it means you're probably drawn to contemplative mysticism. I mean, I wish it were easier. I mean, lots of great questions worthy of further investigation. BRIAN MURARESKU: That's a good question. Because my biggest question is, and the obvious question of the book is, if this was happening in antiquity, what does that mean for today? CHARLES STANG: Brian, I wonder if you could end by reflecting on the meaning of dying before you die. In the afterword, you champion the fact that we stand on the cusp of a new era of psychedelics precisely because they can be synthesized and administered safely in pill form, back to The Economist article "The God Pill". This is true. So the event happens, when all the wines run out, here comes Jesus, who's referred to in the Gospels as an [SPEAKING GREEK] in Greek, a drunkard. So why do you think psychedelics are so significant that they might usher in a new Reformation? 8th century BC from the Tel Arad shrine. It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. So don't feel like you have to go into great depth at this point. So psychedelics or not, I think it's the cultivation of that experience, which is the actual key. So why the silence from the heresiologists on a psychedelic sacrament? There was an absence of continuity in the direction of the colony as Newport made his frequent voyages to and . "@BrianMuraresku with @DocMarkPlotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More" Please enjoy! Before I set forth the outline of this thesis, three topics must be discussed in order to establish a basic understanding of the religious terminology, Constantine's reign, and the contemporary sources. Read more 37 people found this helpful Helpful Report abuse Tfsiebs So much research! So again, that's February 22. He has talked about the potential evidence for psychedelics in a Mithras liturgy. So perhaps there's even more evidence. let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. So Dionysus is not the god of alcohol. And as a lawyer, I know what is probative and what's circumstantial evidence, and I just-- I don't see it there. And I hear-- I sense that narrative in your book. Jerry Brown wrote a good review that should be read to put the book in its proper place. And so part of what it means to be a priest or a minister or a rabbi is to sit with the dying and the dead. Like the wedding at Cana, which my synopsis of that event is a drunkard getting a bunch of drunk people even more drunk. What does it mean to die before dying? I'd never thought before about how Christianity developed as an organized religion in the centuries after Jesus' murder. Now, I think you answered that last part. These-- that-- Christians are spread out throughout the eastern Mediterranean, and there are many, many pockets of people practicing what we might call, let's just call it Christian mysticism of some kind. Some number of people have asked about Egypt. Thank you all for joining us, and I hope to see many of you later this month for our next event. The answer seems to be connected to psychedelic drugs. And this is at a time when we're still hunting and gathering. But I don't understand how that provides any significant link to paleo-Christian practice. In this way, the two traditions coexisted in a syncretic form for some time before . And did the earliest Christians inherit the same secret tradition? You want to field questions in both those categories? Now, let's get started, Brian. So it's hard for me to write this and talk about this without acknowledging the Jesuits who put me here. But what I see are potential and possibilities and things worthy of discussions like this. So we not only didn't have the engineering know-how-- we used to think-- we didn't have even settled life to construct something like this. The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More (#646) - The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss 3 Annual "Best of" Apple Podcasts 900+ Million episodes downloaded And I think there are lots of reasons to believe that. Where are the drugs? Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and improving So even from the very beginning, it wasn't just barley and water. So there's a house preserved outside of Pompeii, preserved, like so much else, under the ash of Mount Vesuvius's eruption in the year 79 of the Common Era. And if there's historical precedent for it, all the more so. And that that's how I-- and by not speculating more than we can about the mystical supper, if we follow the hypothesis that this is a big if for some early communities of Greek speakers, this is how I'm finding common ground with priests both Catholic and Orthodox and Protestants. But what we do know is that their sacrament was wine and we know a bit more about the wine of antiquity, ancient Greek wine, than we can piece together from these nocturnal celebrations. Find ratings and reviews for the newest movie and TV shows. And I just happened to fall into that at the age of 14 thanks to the Jesuits, and just never left it behind. And even in the New Testament, you'll see wine spiked with myrrh, for example, that's served to Jesus at his crucifixion. So this is the tradition, I can say with a straight face, that saved my life. Now, what's curious about this is we usually have-- Egypt plays a rather outsized role in our sense of early Christianity because-- and other adjacent or contemporary religious and philosophical movements, because everything in Egypt is preserved better than anywhere else in the Mediterranean. What does ergotized beer in Catalonia have anything to do with the Greek mysteries at Eleusis? What does that have to do with Christianity? The continuity hypothesis of dreams suggests that the content of dreams are largely continuous with waking concepts and concerns of the dreamer. And it was the Jesuits who encouraged me to always, always ask questions and never take anything at face value. I mean, so it was Greek. He's joining us from Uruguay, where he has wisely chosen to spend his pandemic isolation. Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. But when it comes to that Sunday ritual, it just, whatever is happening today, it seems different from what may have motivated the earliest Christians, which leads me to very big questions. I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. The mysteries of Dionysus, a bit weirder, a bit more off the grid. And he was actually going out and testing some of these ancient chalices. Liked by Samuel Zuschlag. The Continuity Hypothesis was put forward by John Bowlby (1953) as a critical effect of attachments in his development of Attachment Theory. And besides that, young Brian, let's keep the mysteries mysteries. Maybe there's some residual fear that's been built up in me. And so how far should this investigation go? And there were moments when the sunlight would just break through. This limestone altar tested positive for cannabis and frankincense that was being burned, they think, in a very ritualistic way. I'm not sure many have. But what we do know about the wine of the time is that it was routinely mixed with plants and herbs and potentially fungi. And the quote you just read from Burkert, it's published by Harvard University Press in 1985 as Greek Religion. 7:30 The three pillars to the work: the Eucharist as a continuation of the pharmako and Dionysian mysteries; the Pagan continuity theory; and the idea that through the mysteries "We can die before we die so that when we die we do not die" 13:00 What does "blood of Christ" actually mean; the implied and literal cannibalism So I think this was a minority of early Christians. Let me just pull up my notes here. So how to put this? Now, I have no idea where it goes from here, or if I'll take it myself. I mean, this is what I want to do with some of my remaining days on this planet, is take a look at all these different theories. Where you find the grain, you may have found ergot. You can see that inscribed on a plaque in Saint Paul's monastery at Mount Athos in Greece. Now, I've never done them myself, but I have talked to many, many people who've had experience with psychedelics. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . You mentioned, too, early churchmen, experts in heresies by the name of Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome. Did the potion at Eleusis change from generation to generation? Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. And that is that there was a pervasive religion, ancient religion, that involved psychedelic sacraments, and that that pervasive religious culture filtered into the Greek mysteries and eventually into early Christianity. For those who didn't have the time or the money or the temerity to travel all the way to Eleusis from Spain, here's your off-site campus, right? It tested positive for the microscopic remains of beer and also ergot, exactly the hypothesis that had been put forward in 1978 by the disgraced professor across town from you, Carl Ruck, who's now 85 years old, by the way. 101. And when you speak in that way, what I hear you saying is there is something going on. But I don't hold-- I don't hang my hat on that claim. What's different about the Dionysian mysteries, and what evidence, direct or indirect, do we have about the wine of Dionysus being psychedelic? It's something that goes from Homer all the way until the fall of the Roman Empire, over the course of well more than 1,000 years. Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. Now, Mithras is another one of these mystery religions. Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion - Feb 22, 2023 These are famous figures to those of us who study early Christianity. You obviously think these are powerful substances with profound effects that track with reality. It still leaves an even bigger if, Dr. Stang, is which one is psychedelic? They linked the idea of witches to an imagined organized sect which was a danger to the Christian commonwealth. He comes to this research with a full suite of scholarly skills, including a deep knowledge of Greek and Latin as well as facility in a number of European languages, which became crucial for uncovering some rather obscure research in Catalan, and also for sweet-talking the gatekeepers of archives and archaeological sites. The continuity between pagan and Christian cult nearby the archaeological area of Naquane in Capo di Ponte. That's how we get to Catalonia. That to live on forever and ever, to live an everlasting life is not immortality. Copyright 2023 The President and Fellows of Harvard College, The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name. Lots of Greek artifacts, lots of Greek signifiers. You know, it's an atheist using theological language to describe what happened to her. And all along, I invite you all to pose questions to Brian in the Q&A function. Because even though it's a very long time ago, Gobekli Tepe, interestingly, has some things in common with Eleusis, like the worship of the grain, the possibility of brewing, the notion of a pilgrimage, and interaction with the dead.
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